Curse

goku19123 · May 12, 2005, 04:38 PM // 16:38

(this entire post is one suggestion all bundled up lol)

(keep the unlocking system the way it is (i.e. unlock whatever, you can now make a pvp customizable with all the things you unlock))

1) forgot...

2) Make the Signet of Capture a Signet of Elite, and make it so that you don't have to time the use to capture the elite skill - you only need to cast it on the boss of either of your professions and you grab their elite. After all, you already pay gold and one skill point for the signet, so let's make that more user-friendly.

3) Make Quests around the elite skills, as it is for how you can quest most of your regular skills. This would make it so you don't have to hunt around for a boss, or try the same area multiple times because of spawn variations. The quest could be something along the lines of "Go kill "insert name here"" and you bring your Signet of Elite with you. Since you will still need to PvE to some extent to unlock other things, the quests for elites can be scaled starting from the Ruins of Ascalon all the way to the end game. Since you would need the Signet of Elite in this quest, the person you get the quest from charges something arbitrary like 100 gold (consistent, never increasing) and one skill point.

4) Since you can quest for the elites, like you can for other skills, make them also available at skill vendors. There is a division of skills between your primary and secondary profession, just make a third divsion for the elites available at that skill vendor. Since some people may complain about an idea like this giving people "everything all at once," the elites the vendors carry will also scale from the Ruins of Ascalon all the way to end game, and will be the exact same elites you could have quested for. The difference is that the elites the vendors sell should start at something around 1000 gold for the first purchase of an elite and then go up by either 500 or 1000 gold for the next elite purchase.

This at least gives more than one way to unlock elite skills, and makes using a signet to grab elites easier and less time consuming (granted some elites take about 20 minutes to get, but others take an hour or more). This also makes them more accessible for those who know exactly what they want.

Edit: Sorry left something out. For bullet number 3, when you talk to the Quest giving NPC, he charges 100 gold, one skill point and he GIVES you the Signet of Elite. So in that respect, you won't find Signets at regular skill vendors.

Combined with: This idea came from xaanix of the guild hall forum.

I've been pushing this idea for quite a while now, and i have yet to see any real negatives to this suggestion. Exact implementation can vary, but in its most basic form:

Idea
I envision unlocking a new random skill/rune/item bonus on your account every 15 fame you acquire in tombs, and CAP fame gained at around 6 or 8 per round. Ths is done to minimize the gap between the rate of gain between top tier and bottom rung pvpers.

Detail
Because they are random unlocks, this is basically a passive reward, its not something you would head into tombs for if you needed a specific skill. Nonetheless, your time in tombs earns you a passive reward for doing well. This reward is *based on skill*, and does not diminish the usefulness of PVE to unlock specific skills you would like to get. In fact the incentive with this type of system in my eyes is that players will pve to get a basic functioning pvp build, and then go pvp to passively unlock the rest of the features on their account if they desire. This provides an *alternate path of advancement* which is what most pvp players are asking for. (as opposed to unlock all skills). Given the choice between UAS or NOTHING, UAS advocates would definately choose fame based progression, you can take that to the bank. On the flip side, THIS TYPE OF ADVANCEMENT IS NOT GIVING ANYTHING AWAY FOR FREE, which is what most pve players argue against when debating the pvp crowd. I feel it is a middle of the road solution that is acceptable to the vast majority of the gw playerbase.

The ability to unlock all of these features is contingent on the player reaching ascension on a single pve character. This is basically a bone to the PVE community as well as the devs, ensuring that no players are able to skip the entire pve game, and go straight to end game pvp, yet it minimizes the grind pvp players will need to do until they can start enjoying pvp. If a pvp player were so inclined, he could pve and unlock enough skills to defeat his mirror, reach ascension (this took me around 45 hours), and then compete in pvp for the rest of his time in the game if he desired. 45 hours of pve compared to what we're facing now is FAR more tolerable to the pvp community, and in addition it places a special significance on ascension as the time in the game when a player can for the first time make a choice as to how he wants to play the game.

A Concern? - The positive feedback loop

One of the most common themes of objection to pvp rewards is the positive feedback loop, where the top teams become even more powerful due to the pvp rewards they've earned. This is certainly present in wow's pvp rewards system. Is it present here?

Maybe a mild one, but does it matter? consider the following:
- First, unlike even the current rewards system (sigil + drops in HOH), this system DISTRIBUTES the rewards across all the players in tombs based on skill.
- Secondly, at the lower rungs of tombs, the competition will not be very fierce. Any group can be successful in the earlier levels of tombs if they have even the smallest amount of coordination. If a specific group you joined cant win, invariably it will break up and the pieces will be reabsorbed by different groups. Inevitably one of them will win a few matches. For this reason, even some of the weakest link pvp players can progress their accounts under this system in pvp *IF* they choose to.
-Thirdly, due to the lower cap on fame i'm suggesting, Winning the hall of heroes isnt really a key part of this unlocking mechanism. I think Holding HOH already has plenty of rewards (the announcement, the sigil, and the item). Certainly a team interested in acquiring fame for use with this system would find it in their interest to keep holding HOH (for 8 fame a round) as opposed to starting over and earning 1 fame for that same amount of time spent, but it doesnt present an overwhelming amount of power to those who are capable of holding hoh.
-Finally, all the unlocks are ultimately always available through pve as a last resort. Any arguments that this system provides an unfair advantage to pvpers who spend lots of time in pvp also becomes an argument that pve'ers who spend alot of time in pve have an unfair advantage in pvp. Thus pve'ers already have their own positive feedback loop.

Other concerns?

-PvE players will complain if there are pvp rewards:
Note that only ~10% of the playerbase is idealogically against pvp rewards. (via a poll i conducted here which i think you can agree has as big a pve crowd as anywhere.)

This system would not make you more powerful than you could become in pve alone, and most pve'ers objections I believe come from negative experience with past games. As long as we dont follow the same road as those other games, I think we steer clear of any trouble.
For example:

-Awarding special skills that are extremely overpowered and only obtainable through pvp (DAOC) (forces everyone to *grind pvp* to be powerful)
-Awarding extremely powerful armor (like wow), exclusive to pvp. (diminishes the worth of pve)
-Allowing full ganking and stealing of players gear (ultima) This is the worst offender since it directly cuts into pve players enjoyment of the game.

Compared to these, I think fame based unlocks is a pretty damn harmless solution. You give PVP players what they want most, the ability to basically skip alot of the grind inherrent in the PVE game, while still leaving pve players the freedom to play through that content (which they enjoy) and progress their characters through pve or even pvp if they desire.

Summary - It's about choice, not getting everything for free.

This implementation is about giving players choice - the ability to play the way they want, within reason. Who is best able to determine how players should have fun in the game? Players themselves know what makes them happy better than anyone else. Given the lack of any serious impact in pve that these suggestions would have, can anyone give any real reasons why this should not be implemented?

I hope that these ideas will be considered by anet at some point before they make their decision.

Pvp players want an alternate means of advancement, via a side of the game that we enjoy. PvP players are forced to currently grind more than even casual pve players who are fans of the pve game mechanic. Why is this the case? It is ONLY because of the lack of an alternate form of advancement in pvp. Most pve players will beat the missions and shelve the game. This is able to be accomplished in about 50-60 hours. Why do pvp players have to continue to grind for an extra 100+ hours just so they can be competitive in pvp? <- This is the real tradgedy behind the entire game right now.

This is not the thread to debate whether or not grind (a subjective notion) exists. The goal of this thread is to find a middle ground that has the possibility of satisfying most/all people.

By all means, if you have a suggestion, post it here.

butcherboy · May 12, 2005, 06:10 PM // 18:10

What poll? I didn't see any poll.

I don't see how you get 100+ hr grind for PvP players as a reasonable number of PvE players PvP. If you plan according to what PvP player you want, you play just as long as a PvE player does. You need more skills? Send farm boy out to the PvE real and look for the other l55t skills they are lacking. No biggie. You will have to do that in order to be l55t after the expansion pack comes out anyways.

Also what solid PvE player wants to be forced to PvP to get l55t skills by having to go into the tombs? It makes no sense to turn around and penalize PvE only players because PvP players are confused about the nature of GW. GW is a PvE based game. Not PvP. PvE. The story, the sheer size of the PvE world, the TDM only part of PvP all scream that GW is a PvE game. A CORPG PvE game. If it were PvP, there would be no instance worlds, gacking, and PKing until the sun came up ala the other 40 billion other MMORPGs in existance.
The only mandatory PvP that takes place in the game is the mid-searing PvP academy deal. You don't have to win, it is just something you do to post-sear. PvP is currently not mandatory to do anything right now but get a Guild Sigil, which is kind of lame as it ignores the PvE only guilds.

I am assuming that your 60+ hours is the mission only campaign folks? I blieve that I am at 12+hrs with my character and have only done one mission. If you run through GW you can get it in 60hrs, if you take time to enjoy the ride there, I don't see it being less than 80 - 100hrs beyond that. There is so much to do and see in GW that I still find new stuff. The best part of PvE is that PvE is fun the 2nd time around and the 3rd time around because you can try different characters out. Way fun.

If you want a PvP only type deal, but a copy of Legends of Might and Magic. GW isn't your UT of the MMORPG. Honestly, it was a mistake to let PvP chars start at lvl20. It would have avoided a good deal of confusion on the PvP side of things.

Things I do TOTALLY AGREE WITH is that elite captures should be given as a quest. I HONESTLY and TOTALLY AGREE with this. Why? Who wants to spend 6-10 hours doing the same quest over and over in hopes that BeastMaster X is a Necromancer this time around? The random boss deal doesn't make a lot of sense unless the skill can be gotten from a quest from a skills master - to prove yourself worthy of the skill. Buy a signet, go fight your boss monster, capture your elite skill from him. Technically, you are within the realm of an RPG by proving your worth.

More precisely, a long multi-stage set of missions to go quest for an elite skill would rock even more - at the end of the mission, you PICK the elite skill - the signet allows you access to missions from skills masters and triggers the mission (if player x has a signet and is in town Y, then a mission button pops up and allows the player to start his l55t skill quest). Nothing beats a good crawl to make getting a l55t skill seem a lot better. Essentially the first concept is a transition to the 2nd concept as I bet it won't be easy to just "do it".

I DO AGREE a more tangible way to get l55t skills is needed, but just giving them away (as gold is so abundant later) to PvP players isn't the answer. Making PvE players PvP isn't the answer. There has to be a tangible effort made to get the l55t skill but no a wall slamming effort like trying 40-50 times to get a monster to cough up as a necro and use the desired l55t skills. A little wall slamming like trying to get a monster to use a l55t skill will be OK (not the most fun, but who knows what l55t skill you want?) but not as much fun as "Sammy Sharkfin is a grand master ranger known for his sworm of bees skill," being the object of the mission for a ranger l55t "swarm of bees" skill.

Essentially everyone agrees that the Signet system could be better, but as a PvE I don't want it to be a free ride for l5t5 PvP only players who didn't do a squat of effort to get it just in case I ever PvP. It is akin to the Knights of the Round table questing and dying for 4 years only to find out Sir Evil Dude bought his at Wally Mart for $4.99 plus tax. Fundamentally, it just ain't right.

goku19123 · May 12, 2005, 07:51 PM // 19:51

Xaanix's idea is not force PvE to PvP but to give a third way to unlock skills - in the above suggestion there are a total of 3 ways to unlock the same thing.

In Xaanix's idea, the unlocking during PvP is passive, and both PvE and PvP players benefit from it.

You're not giving anyone anything since it would all scale from the beginning to the end of the game - if you want ACCESS to those skills, PvP'ers still need to finish the PvE story once.

Edit: You don't see a poll because I pulled Xaanix's idea from another forum, which I mentioned.

I am not going to mention what other things you said that are not even in my post - please read all of the post, not portions. And you can't ask me questions about someone else's post, you would have to go to guild hall forums and ask that person.

jdwoody · May 12, 2005, 08:41 PM // 20:41

I really like the idea of having quests to help you capture the skills you're looking for. However I'd rather see skill points be the currency that limits buying elite skills. Same skill trainers only it costs 5 skill points instead of 1 skill point to get an elite. That would easily give someone access to 2-3 (maybe a few more) elite skills when they hit 20th level but someone that enjoys the PvE can get their skills that way.

5?) Battle Signet of Capture - Costs 1 skill point only in Tombs, capture skills from opponents when they use elite skills. If your team wins you unlock the skill, if your team loses you lose the Battle Signet of Capture and the skill remains locked.

goku19123 · May 12, 2005, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdwoody

I really like the idea of having quests to help you capture the skills you're looking for. However I'd rather see skill points be the currency that limits buying elite skills. Same skill trainers only it costs 5 skill points instead of 1 skill point to get an elite. That would easily give someone access to 2-3 (maybe a few more) elite skills when they hit 20th level but someone that enjoys the PvE can get their skills that way.

5?) Battle Signet of Capture - Costs 1 skill point only in Tombs, capture skills from opponents when they use elite skills. If your team wins you unlock the skill, if your team loses you lose the Battle Signet of Capture and the skill remains locked.

A few others I have talked to mentioned that as well (capturing from other players, in tombs only), and an even bigger consensus agreed that it would undermine PvP because you would have poeple just watching others incase they used an elite, instead of trying to win. And from that, passive tombs rewards (like a random unlock every 15 fame, as was xaanix's idea).

About elites costing more than 1 skill point, if that happened you would have people again complaining about grind lol, only this time it would be about grinding for skill points.

Having everything scaled from beginning to end will limit the access of skills til someone reaches the last town. But I think what you are suggesting, is that from a skill vendor the elite skill costs zero gold, but two skill points, and I have no problems with a cost like that.

Lazarous · May 13, 2005, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by goku19123

A few others I have talked to mentioned that as well (capturing from other players, in tombs only), and an even bigger consensus agreed that it would undermine PvP because you would have poeple just watching others incase they used an elite, instead of trying to win. And from that, passive tombs rewards (like a random unlock every 15 fame, as was xaanix's idea).

About elites costing more than 1 skill point, if that happened you would have people again complaining about grind lol, only this time it would be about grinding for skill points.

Having everything scaled from beginning to end will limit the access of skills til someone reaches the last town. But I think what you are suggesting, is that from a skill vendor the elite skill costs zero gold, but two skill points, and I have no problems with a cost like that.

A more pressing concern with having elites unlockable via an arena SoC is that it makes it markedly easier to get elites - with arranged guild matches, you can flat out farm elites off of the prebuilt chars, or you can quickly disseminate whatever elites have been captured by one team. This brings up the question of why add the extra step? if you're making elites so easy to get stop beating around the bush and just hand them out to people.

Beyond that, fame based unlocks sound reasonable but somewhat limited. You really can't accrue fame that quickly in tombs unless you're on a good team, which are mostly guild-only. This means that casual players again likely get shafted before they have a chance to compete.

If its so imperative to have some sort of 'bar' that seperates those that have their full abilities from those that don't, why not simply make it based on /played? The more time in-game, the more stuff gets unlocked. Thats essentially all that adding unlock systems means.

Laz

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 02:05 AM // 02:05

Well, due to the random nature of teams in the Tombs, getting fame really isn't that hard, and I'm a casual gamer.

Edit: Sorry left something out: The "bar" that seperates those who have what they need and those who don't, is going through the game ONCE - after that you have access to everything (minus runes of course, and that is when xaanix's idea comes into play with random unlocks).

Siren · May 13, 2005, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

3) Make Quests around the elite skills, as it is for how you can quest most of your regular skills. This would make it so you don't have to hunt around for a boss, or try the same area multiple times because of spawn variations. The quest could be something along the lines of "Go kill "insert name here"" and you bring your Signet of Elite with you. Since you will still need to PvE to some extent to unlock other things, the quests for elites can be scaled starting from the Ruins of Ascalon all the way to the end game. Since you would need the Signet of Elite in this quest, the person you get the quest from charges something arbitrary like 100 gold (consistent, never increasing) and one skill point.

4) Since you can quest for the elites, like you can for other skills, make them also available at skill vendors. There is a division of skills between your primary and secondary profession, just make a third divsion for the elites available at that skill vendor. Since some people may complain about an idea like this giving people "everything all at once," the elites the vendors carry will also scale from the Ruins of Ascalon all the way to end game, and will be the exact same elites you could have quested for. The difference is that the elites the vendors sell should start at something around 1000 gold for the first purchase of an elite and then go up by either 500 or 1000 gold for the next elite purchase.

This at least gives more than one way to unlock elite skills, and makes using a signet to grab elites easier and less time consuming (granted some elites take about 20 minutes to get, but others take an hour or more).

Edit: Sorry left something out. For bullet number 3, when you talk to the Quest giving NPC, he charges 100 gold, one skill point and he GIVES you the Signet of Elite. So in that respect, you won't find Signets at regular skill vendors.

Well, if you're charging for the SoE at the Quest-giver, why have Elite skill vendors at all? Plus, even in Old Ascalon Post-Searing...what players are going to have enough of a surplus over 1k to be able to comfortably drop the amount to buy the first Elite skill and still have enough left over for purchases they may need (Salvage kits, Identify kits, armor, etc.)? For that matter, the second Elite? Third? Fort Ranik? Piken Square? I don't see how scaling them throughout the game will balance out selling an Elite skill at Ascalon City Post-Searing for 1k gold.

Why not just leave it at Quest-based? The players won't be searching aimlessly, they'll have a goal, a location, a mission. Some missions may take longer than others, but I envision those Elite Quest missions to take no longer (or if longer, then not by much) than the regular skill missions.

Plus, the way skill vendors are set-up now, they sell the skills you may have missed in the previous area, and even if you buy an Elite at Fort Ranik that you could have Quested for in Old Ascalon...what's to say that you're going to have amassed enough gold from that one story-based mission? I look at the price of regular skills in this system, and they only start at 20 gold, and go up in increments of 20 with each purchase. Elites starting at 1k and going up by 500 or 1k with each purchase (again provided the player has that kind of gold on-hand within the first couple of areas)? That doesn't sound like a good idea at all.

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Well, if you're charging for the SoE at the Quest-giver, why have Elite skill vendors at all? Plus, even in Old Ascalon Post-Searing...what players are going to have enough of a surplus over 1k to be able to comfortably drop the amount to buy the first Elite skill and still have enough left over for purchases they may need (Salvage kits, Identify kits, armor, etc.)? For that matter, the second Elite? Third? Fort Ranik? Piken Square? I don't see how scaling them throughout the game will balance out selling an Elite skill at Ascalon City Post-Searing for 1k gold.

Why not just leave it at Quest-based? The players won't be searching aimlessly, they'll have a goal, a location, a mission. Some missions may take longer than others, but I envision those Elite Quest missions to take no longer (or if longer, then not by much) than the regular skill missions.

Plus, the way skill vendors are set-up now, they sell the skills you may have missed in the previous area, and even if you buy an Elite at Fort Ranik that you could have Quested for in Old Ascalon...what's to say that you're going to have amassed enough gold from that one story-based mission? I look at the price of regular skills in this system, and they only start at 20 gold, and go up in increments of 20 with each purchase. Elites starting at 1k and going up by 500 or 1k with each purchase (again provided the player has that kind of gold on-hand within the first couple of areas)? That doesn't sound like a good idea at all.

Making it available in more than one way is the goal, they may not have it on hand at that moment, and you are right, they could just do the quest. But they could always come back for it, if they don't want to quest.

Lazarous · May 13, 2005, 02:45 AM // 02:45

What about a system of 'elite skill points' that are given out as rewards for completing bonus missions. You can redeem those points for elite skills at some vendor later in the game (droknars forge seems appropriate). Hand out enough points so that if you complete all the bonus missions you can get access to 30 elites (your two classes worth).

Laz

Siren · May 13, 2005, 03:32 AM // 03:32

That sounds reasonable, Laz. No gold standard, no skill vendor in the same sense of the regular skills, and it would give people incentive to complete the bonus missions. Sounds like fun.

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 03:51 AM // 03:51

That does sound pretty good as well, only need to play through once to get them all.

Lazarous · May 13, 2005, 03:53 AM // 03:53

This of course still has the problem of requiring you to play through 3 times to unlock all the classes, and doesn't touch the runes debacle.

Laz

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Still, it can be combined with something like Xaanix's idea of passive PvP unlocks. I mean, considering the unlocks are random, it could be made to unlock a skill for another class.

Siren · May 13, 2005, 04:10 AM // 04:10

Runes: Simple. Saus Rex had posted something in another thread, and it is something I agree with. Many of the quests sprinkled throughout PvE are giving swords, axes, bows, Smiting Rods (a lot of Smiting Rods, come to think of it), and often those weapons are nowhere nearly as powerful as the weapon(s) you've got equipped, so they end up becoming Merchant Fodder.

Instead of weaponry, we get Runes. Naturally, the power of the Runes would have to be proportionate to that point in the game (a "Class I" Rune appears when you hit Shiverpeaks, for example, then Class IIs and IIIs in increments thereafter).

A snag with this idea seems to be that with the amount of Runes in the game, there would need to be a hell of a lot of quests--but really, there are a lot of little sidequests here and there, especially if you suffer from OCD in any severity, so it's certainly possible to sprinkle the Runes throughout.

Also, keeping Runes as a drop would help the unlocking process. I've unlocked a nice collection already, long before Lion's Arch. It wouldn't be guaranteed or anything, but at least it would have probability to give some boost...a supplementary to the primary Rune Quest feature.

Regarding repeat playthroughs...some primary missions take some time, but if you've gone through the game once, why would the second and third playthroughs take so much time? You know where to go right away. You know how to complete every bonus mission. The only issue might be more profession-related (class strengths and weaknesses). But then again,this is a group-focused game, so class strengths and weaknesses tend to melt when you're in a solid group.

Manderlock · May 13, 2005, 04:13 AM // 04:13

2 and 3 i would have no problem with ( however that would dumb down the skill need considerably)

4 is a deffinite no from me.

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Well, it would make it less time consuming and more straightforward, which was my goal.

You should probably be a tad more in depth than that by the way...

goku19123 · May 13, 2005, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Runes: Simple. Saus Rex had posted something in another thread, and it is something I agree with. Many of the quests sprinkled throughout PvE are giving swords, axes, bows, Smiting Rods (a lot of Smiting Rods, come to think of it), and often those weapons are nowhere nearly as powerful as the weapon(s) you've got equipped, so they end up becoming Merchant Fodder.

Instead of weaponry, we get Runes. Naturally, the power of the Runes would have to be proportionate to that point in the game (a "Class I" Rune appears when you hit Shiverpeaks, for example, then Class IIs and IIIs in increments thereafter).

A snag with this idea seems to be that with the amount of Runes in the game, there would need to be a hell of a lot of quests--but really, there are a lot of little sidequests here and there, especially if you suffer from OCD in any severity, so it's certainly possible to sprinkle the Runes throughout.

Also, keeping Runes as a drop would help the unlocking process. I've unlocked a nice collection already, long before Lion's Arch. It wouldn't be guaranteed or anything, but at least it would have probability to give some boost...a supplementary to the primary Rune Quest feature.

Oh, a runes-based unlocking quest does sound good as well. And you are correct about the smiting rods and utter garbage with rewards. I ran my warrior straight to the end of the game and beat it, and I went back and picked up ALL the quests I missed so see what the rewards were to record them - the biggest slant ever was towards crap axes/bows/rods.

Lazarous · May 13, 2005, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Making runes quest rewards sounds wonderful, especially in place of those godawful smiting rods that are everywhere.

Quote:

Regarding repeat playthroughs...some primary missions take some time, but if you've gone through the game once, why would the second and third playthroughs take so much time? You know where to go right away. You know how to complete every bonus mission. The only issue might be more profession-related (class strengths and weaknesses). But then again,this is a group-focused game, so class strengths and weaknesses tend to melt when you're in a solid group.

That is of course the entire problem. You've done the mission, you know exactly what to do, you know exactly whats going to happen. Thats pretty damned boring.

Laz

Manderlock · May 13, 2005, 04:21 AM // 04:21

No real prob with this, but I see this coming VERY close to 2 seperate games.